John Tierney: To offset people switch to paper bags. And so to offset the initial carbon footprint of a cotton tote bag, you would have to use it 173 times, which nobody does. And meanwhile these bags have much bigger carbon footprints than those really thin gossamer grocery bags that we get. The typical tote bag is used only about 15 times. People forget them about half the time they go to the supermarket. But in the real world, people do not use their bags that often. So the green logic is well we'll just keep using these bags over and over again and that will save it. Also more energy to ship them because they're a lot heavier. It takes a lot more energy and resources to manufacture those bags. John Tierney: The problem is, is the cloth bags, or any kind of reusable bag, is much thicker. But if you look at the facts, it's the reverse.Д«rian Anderson: Yes. And lately the excuse has been that it's a way to reduce carbon emissions. Then there were things that it was causing litter, clogging storm drains. In the seventies and eighties they were saying that we're running out of petroleum so we can't use plastic. And they've been looking for one excuse after another to ban it. I mean the basic explanation is that environmentalist for like 50 years, just have something against plastic. Because it increases carbon emissions and it actually increases ocean pollution too. But the plastic panic is not only a waste of time and money, but it's actually bad for the environment. I mean recycling was an expensive and time-consuming way to accomplish very little. I mean, the plastic panic, as I call it, is really even crazier than recycling. John Tierney: You know, it's very strange.

So what's the logic behind that position? And that the plastic bag ban in grocery stores and other retail outlets is going to be counterproductive. But you write in this essay that if we really cared about the environment, we'd throw our plastics into landfills and incinerators rather than recycle them.

New York's ban on plastic bags is set to go into effect very soon on March 1st. So hundreds of cities and now I think eight states have passed laws to ban or regulate single use plastics, plastic bags most notably. Back in 1996 the Times published a seminal piece by you on the issue under the provocative headline, вЂњ Recycling Is Garbage.вЂќ In recent years it seems that the campaign against plastics has really grown. John, thanks for joining us.Д«rian Anderson: So to start, I want to remind our listeners that you've been studying the question of recycling and environmentalism in America for decades now. We'll talk to John briefly about his new book later, but we were eager to get him on the podcast to discuss his latest essay for City Journal which is in our winter 2020 issue, called вЂњ The Perverse Panic over Plastic.вЂќ The essay was just adapted in the Wall Street Journal so you can check out a shorter version of the piece on their website if you're interested. It's coauthored with Roy Baumeister and you can find it on Amazon or wherever books are sold. It's called The Power of Bad: How the Negativity Effect Rules Us and How We Can Rule It. His latest book was just released at the end of the year. You can follow him on Twitter John is a Contributing Editor at City Journal, and before joining us he was a reporter and columnist for the New York Times. Joining me in the studio is John Tierney. This is Brian Anderson, the editor of City Journal. We'll take a quick break and we'll be back with John Tierney.Д«rian Anderson: Hello again everyone. John also has a brand new book out, which we'll talk about toward the end of the interview, called The Power of Bad: How the Negativity Effect Rules Us and How We Can Rule It. You can find it on the City Journal website, and we'll be sure to link to it in the podcast description. It's called вЂњ The Perverse Panic over Plastic.вЂќ It's a powerful essay that exposes some of the weak thinking behind the campaign to rid us of plastic bags, bottles, and straws.

John's here to discuss his latest feature essay for City Journal, which appeared in our Winter 2020 Issue. Coming up on today's show I'll be joined in the studio by John Tierney. Brian Anderson: Welcome back to the 10 Blocks podcast.

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